Please Read: Regarding Ambleside Online's Copyright Policy

[ccsdg]

I'm an erstwhile designer/artist trying to express a mixture of wanting to advertise AO and also possibly keep my hand in logo design.  Can I design logos that use the name "Ambleside Online" without permission official sanction?  For example, if I design a logo in my own time and the Advisory don't like or want it.  Am I allowed to then distribute the design?  Sell it?  Personally I'm quite happy to design logos for other things to achieve the latter part of my intention if AO doesn't want me designing things with its name on it...  but I love AO and I wondered if I could kill two birds with one stone.

I did read the AO license page.  It seems to refer to the copyright of curriculum material, not the Ambleside Online name (or logo), except in the Q&A section, where we're allowed to use the name in our own blogs and link it when quoting.  Presumably we can present the name on our blog in whatever design of our choice and then also market the blog... but presuming is a poor substitute for clarity.  Perhaps copyright of the name could be specified in the license?

EDIT: rereading my post I realise I used the word "permission" loosely.  I've replaced it with the words "official sanction," that is, something I make just for fun that AO doesn't want to accept as their own.  Also, I guess I was thinking of logos when I wrote this but I guess it could apply to anything that uses the name.  To include additional questions: Are the letters "AO" also copyrighted?  Is the word "Ambleside" copyrighted?  What about informal designations like "Amblesiding", "Amblesider", or "Amblyside"?  Please forgive me if this is rude - I don't know how or where else to ask.  I don't come from America, and I'm unfortunately not trained in copyright law.

[WendiC]

I'm an erstwhile designer/artist trying to express a mixture of wanting to advertise AO and also possibly keep my hand in logo design.  Can I design logos that use the name "Ambleside Online" without permission?  For example, if I design a logo in my own time and the Advisory don't like or want it.  Am I allowed to then distribute the design?  Sell it?  Personally I'm quite happy to design logos for other things to achieve the latter part of my intention if AO doesn't want me designing things with its name on it...  but I love AO and I wondered if I could kill two birds with one stone.

I did read the AO license page.  It seems to refer to the copyright of curriculum material, not the Ambleside Online name (or logo), except in the Q&A section, where we're allowed to use the name in our own blogs and link it when quoting.  Presumably we can present the name on our blog in whatever design of our choice and then also market the blog... but presuming is a poor substitute for clarity.  Perhaps copyright of the name could be specified in the license?

No, you may not. We designed AO in our own time at much personal expense in terms of both time and financial cost and we make it free to others, maintain it, upkeep it, continue to create for it and to provide free advise and consultations on FB and in the forum, and we do not do this in order for others to see our work as a platform for making money. If you love AO, please also love our vision and respect our work by not trying to market any part of it, including the name.

Thanks for understanding.

[LynnBruce]

For example, if I design a logo in my own time and the Advisory don't like or want it.  Am I allowed to then distribute the design?  Sell it? 

Over the past 20 years, countless people have approached us directly, privately, and respectfully to inquire if they could make money off of our work. I can't even describe what that looks like from our vantage point, but we always try to respond with courtesy to those who approach us with courtesy. 

If I am reading correctly, ccsdg, you want to sell AO-branded merchandise even if the AO Advisory board disapproves-- as long as there is a legal loophole in our non-profit foundation's license agreement.

You are making sure we cannot protect our own work, even while you are checking to make sure you could protect yours.

In two decades of the Advisory providing this curriculum for free at great personal expense, this is possibly the most disrespectful request we have ever received.

The only entity that has any right to create and sell AO-branded merchandise of any kind is the AmblesideOnline Educational Foundation, and if the Board of AOEF ever chooses to do so, it will be to generate funds to improve AO's infrastructure and resources, and to keep the curriculum freely available for everyone into our old age and beyond. 

Everyone including you and your children.

[ccsdg]

No, you may not. We designed AO in our own time at much personal expense in terms of both time and financial cost and we make it free to others, maintain it, upkeep it, continue to create for it and to provide free advise and consultations on FB and in the forum, and we do not do this in order for others to see our work as a platform for making money.   If you love AO, please also love our vision and respect our work by not trying to market any part of it, including the name.

Thanks for understanding.

I do love AO and respect your work tremendously, which is why I asked first, and now I think I'll stay away from both the name and the letters AO entirely.  Speaking of which, can I also clarify whether the letters "AO" are copyrighted?  I am trying to clarify the relevant facebook thread.  Thank you, and thank you for all your heart, thoughtfulness, vision, kindness and faithfulness.  Cheryl

[ccsdg]

Over the past 20 years, countless people have approached us directly, privately, and respectfully to inquire if they could make money off of our work. I can't even describe what that looks like from our vantage point, but we always try to respond with courtesy to those who approach us with courtesy. 

If I am reading correctly, ccsdg, you want to sell AO-branded merchandise even if the AO Advisory board disapproves-- as long as there is a legal loophole in our non-profit foundation's license agreement.

You are making sure we cannot protect our own work, even while you are checking to make sure you could protect yours.

In two decades of the Advisory providing this curriculum for free at great personal expense, this is possibly the most disrespectful request we have ever received.

The only entity that has any right to create and sell AO-branded merchandise of any kind is the AmblesideOnline Educational Foundation, and if the Board of AOEF ever chooses to do so, it will be to generate funds to improve AO's infrastructure and resources, and to keep the curriculum freely available for everyone into our old age and beyond. 

Everyone including you and your children.

I'm deeply shocked, and a little hurt.  I thought that asking clearly and openly would be more respectful than simply flying under the radar and doing my own thing anyway, and that asking in a public space would make it clear for other people considering the same course of action and prevent you having to reply to multiple private messages.  If I don't ask, how can I know?  Is it rude to ask for clarity?  (a real question, not rhetorical - please answer if you have an answer)

There is most definitely some confusion.  Let me clarify my intention.  If it was clear and obvious that the AO Advisory disapproved of selling my designs, of course I would respect that, and I hope I have already clarified that in my last post.  In fact, it was not clear to me (eg linking on a blog, which requires design of my choice), therefore, I asked. This is a hypothetical question - I have never designed anything with AO's name in it, and now that I know clearly that they do not want me to do this, I quite obviously will not. I am very sad that this question has caused offense.

Far be it from me to try to exploit your license.  I was hoping to inform you that you hadn't mentioned the name, and that perhaps you should update the license.  I find your response hurtful and baffling.

[ccsdg]

At the very likely risk of inciting more wrath against me, can I ask another question of clarification about copyright...

I mentioned in my first post "distribute" separately from "sell", and it is clear to me now that we are not to sell anything with the name. However I am still not clear on whether we are allowed to distribute the name "Ambleside Online," for free, and not for profit. For (hypothetical) example, could I paint an illustration that says, "I love Ambleside Online," and share it on social media, for free. It is not curriculum material; again, it is the name.

I would love if someone could clarify this for me, and I would love it even more if you didn't land like a sledgehammer on me, please... yes, I am a newbie, I am ignorant, and I don't understand the 20 years of blood, sweat and tears that has gone into it. I was not there. Please help me to understand.

[BecTasmanian]

This is a great listen https://sellfy.com/p/pe5y/ about how AO came to be.

[LynnBruce]

Cheryl, thank you for coming back to clarify your intentions. Of course it is not rude to ask us for clarity, but it helps a great deal if you ask your questions with the same clarity you are asking for. I'm going to ask you to objectively read the part of your original post which I quoted in my response, and I hope you can see how others--several others, not just myself--have read it to say that you were asking if you can design a new AO logo and sell it, even if the Advisory doesn't like it. This is what your words communicate, whether or not that is what you intended to communicate. Your wording of the question asked, essentially, if you can take our name, rebrand it in your own way, and use it for profit and/or share it on social media, even if we don't like it. If your wording choice does not accurately reflect your true intention, surely you will agree that those who have misunderstood your meaning cannot fairly be blamed for that. 

I am glad to hear you saying now that you meant something different, and I thank you for your spirit in agreeing to honor our license. Our responses were not meant to be sledgehammer responses but they were meant to be clear, because we have learned the hard way that unfortunately we do have to be perfectly, crystal clear when we say no to these sorts of things. We do not enjoy doing this heavy stuff. All we really want to do here is help other mothers educate their children; that is where our hearts are.

In your response to me, you repeated your question about whether you can distribute logos for free which you create using our name. Wendi answered this, above, when she said, "No, you may not." That was an answer to both aspects of your question-- both selling and sharing. We are not aware of any foundation, corporation, or business which allows individuals to create unauthorized logos and images using their branded name, which the individuals then distribute/sell on their own. AO does have professionally designed logos and symbols of our choosing, and we have a commissioned multi-media artist working closely with us to create additional logos, images, and symbols for a variety of uses which AOEF will trademark. There will almost certainly be graphics in that package which AO families will be welcome to share on social media.

I hope this exchange clarifies what you wanted to know from us, and gives you peace. I hold no offense and hope you will release any offense toward me as well. I hope you find satisfying outlets for your skills, also.

[ccsdg]

Cheryl, thank you for coming back to clarify your intentions. Of course it is not rude to ask us for clarity, but it helps a great deal if you ask your questions with the same clarity you are asking for. I'm going to ask you to objectively read the part of your original post which I quoted in my response, and I hope you can see how others--several others, not just myself--have read it to say that you were asking if you can design a new AO logo and sell it, even if the Advisory doesn't like it. This is what your words communicate, whether or not that is what you intended to communicate. Your wording of the question asked, essentially, if you can take our name, rebrand it in your own way, and use it for profit and/or share it on social media, even if we don't like it. If your wording choice does not accurately reflect your true intention, surely you will agree that those who have misunderstood your meaning cannot fairly be blamed for that. 

I am glad to hear you saying now that you meant something different, and I thank you for your spirit in agreeing to honor our license. Our responses were not meant to be sledgehammer responses but they were meant to be clear, because we have learned the hard way that unfortunately we do have to be perfectly, crystal clear when we say no to these sorts of things. We do not enjoy doing this heavy stuff. All we really want to do here is help other mothers educate their children; that is where our hearts are.

In your response to me, you repeated your question about whether you can distribute logos for free which you create using our name. Wendi answered this, above, when she said, "No, you may not." That was an answer to both aspects of your question-- both selling and sharing. We are not aware of any foundation, corporation, or business which allows individuals to create unauthorized logos and images using their branded name, which the individuals then distribute/sell on their own. AO does have professionally designed logos and symbols of our choosing, and we have a commissioned multi-media artist working closely with us to create additional logos, images, and symbols for a variety of uses which AOEF will trademark. There will almost certainly be graphics in that package which AO families will be welcome to share on social media.

I hope this exchange clarifies what you wanted to know from us, and gives you peace. I hold no offense and hope you will release any offense toward me as well. I hope you find satisfying outlets for your skills, also.

Thanks for your further clarification, Lynn.  I do recognise my wording was not clear and unhelpful, although I'm still uncomfortable about the level of acridity...  I did read Wendi's response, and it seemed to be mostly from a monetary perspective, so I did want to clarify that she was responding to both parts, which you have, thank you.  I have added some additional questions to the original post, but they mostly serve to clarify the definition of whether some words are also considered AO's "name" that are trademarked, that is, the following: the letters "AO", the word "Ambleside" (a place name?), informal designations like "Amblesider", "Amblesiding", "Amblyside", and whatever others that might crop up in the future.

I'm so sorry about all my ignorance.  If I may ask a further question...  What do you (or we) do about the various materials around the internet that use the words "Ambleside online" in graphical, non-official ways?  There are websites, blogs, stand-alone graphics etc that use the words "Ambleside Online" in graphical ways that aren't the official logo.  Do you object to these?  Do you like them but want them moderated? For that matter, is the official logo permitted for use, or can we only say the name in text?  Our highly connected world is an increasing stream of images and ideas.  It is very challenging to sort through that stream and know when each specific thing is permitted and when it's not.

[ccsdg]

double posted.